並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E8%A7%80%E5%BC%B1%E9%9F%B3/ep17%E7%94%A8%E5%87%B8%E7%89%88%E5%8D%B0%E5%88%B7%E5%81%9A%E3%84%A7%E5%BC%B5%E5%90%8D%E7%89%87%E6%99%82%E5%88%86%E5%8D%B0%E5%88%B7-%E6%B9%AF%E8%88%9C-CjTK2ys5xaN/